Here is my attempt, you might need to click on it and zoom in to make out the detail...sorry. Special apologies to Berowra people, I meant to include you in the Northern Suburbs bit.
Its an interesting exercise, and while attempting it I made the following observations:
1. Which criteria do you use? Economic? physical? or just "the vibe"? I kinda went for the third, which in reality is a mix of lots of other factors. But some areas do carry a widely recognised identity, eg "the Shire" and "the Upper North Shore". What makes for such identities?
2. Following on I noticed that other areas really didn't lend themselves to a more obvious label. What about that bit just south of the CBD which isn't really Inner West but isn't quite St George either? Inner South?
3. What about those bits which seems to get lots of negative press? The strip of land stretching between Bankstown and Auburn for example. This is often labeled as Muslim territory, but are Muslims really the dominant group? The vast multiculturalism of this area is perhaps the biggest identifying factor.
4. Notice how the more west you get the bigger the boroughs? This could be for a number of reasons: People in the more established areas are more concerned to identify themselves more narrowly therefore they have established their identity accordingly; The newer areas are yet to develop identities that have Sydney-wide currency; My scheme reveals my own ignorance and biases.
5. I wonder whether you could draw up a typical character profile of people living in these areas. As one (female) friend said, "You can tell a woman from XXX because of the massive amounts of gold jewelry and the massive massive hair."
6. It would be interesting to compare the comparable regions. Eg, Upper North Shore vs Hills. Both are affluent, but is it a different kind of affluence? Old Money vs New Money? What about Lower North Shore and the Eastern Suburbs?
What do people think? Is my attempt on the money?
15 comments:
Good discussion wasn't it? One question: On your map, where's Parramatta? Strange that its not on there. You need a marker for that entire middle section to properly know where things are delineated. And like it or not, everything in that area is related by its location wrt Parra.
Alistair (who lives east of Parramatta)
I think places in Sydney are characterised more by who doesn't live in them, than by who does. And I'm not sure someone from the Upper North Shore would be willing to move to Hills...
Claire (who definitely doesn't live on the North Shore)
Seems pretty good to me. I think it is definitely the older areas that have more established identities, as local identity seems to reinforce itself. (In the NYC case, the borough identities are reinforced by the fact that they are legally different boroughs.)
Of course, you can stereotype all of them, as long as you remember that it is a stereotype. As for your classification, the name "Northern Suburbs" includes LNS, UNS and NB for me - the bit you label is just what's left over. Would it be unfair to call A-B simply Bankstown? I've seen "inner south" used in some newspaper articles. And your classification is better than your map-drawing - You've put most of Marrickville in St George, and it has a lot more in common with the Inner West and even Bansktown than St George, I would have thought.
I think Alistair's right -- virtually all your labels, Marty are well known, except Dundas Valley. As a child of Dundas, Dundas Valley meant something very specific, and I don't think that's what your label is referring to. I'd replace Dundas Valley with Parramatta (which should at least make the Oatlands people happy) and make that borough bigger -- push the western suburbs further out.
Greg A.
Parramatta is missing because Google Earth didn't show it when I captured the image. And I know the accuracy isn't too accurate (what else do you expect at 1am sat morning?).
As for the legitimacy of Northern Suburbs and Dundas Valley...well, I want to maintain that NS is a legit division. One of the ways to test any configuration is to pick a suburb (eg Eastwood). Now where does it fit? Nth Shore? No. Northern Beaches? Definitely not. Nthn Sub? Yeah, that works. Not only because it doesn't really fit anywhere else, but I have heard this label before.
Now try the same for Oatlands, Dundas, Telopea. Where would you place them? They don't really fit into any current regions. Parramatta? I don't see Parra as a borough (that's easier to write than to say), it's a centre within a borough (Western suburbs). I can see "the valley" as having its own identity, esp as when you visit the area the valley aspect of these suburbs is pretty obvious. And I added the "Dundas" label to help identify it as it's the only borough which I coined myself (that's why you haven't heard of it as a regional label).
But then again, "Parraborough" could include Greystanes and Merrylands, which I've always thought were a little too north for inclusion in the South Western suburbs. You could extend "Parraborough" at least out to Pendle Hill. Its growing on me.
But the question, Greg A, is this: Where would you start the Western Suburbs?
Have you noticed there is a different accent and different values from borough to borough?
Having lived worked and studied in various of the burroughs each has a distinctive accent .. its fun to meet people from these places and ask what part of Liverpool or whereever they came from.
Values with particular regard to materialism are interesting distinctives too.
Steve
Eastwood and that sort of area is interesting. The local phone directory for that area says it's the "Hills District"; yet others call it the North Shore, but most people in that area would say definitely not if they were asked whether they lived on the North Shore.
There's always "Northern Districts", which is the area around the Northern train line north of the river.
Harder still is the area south of the river around Rhodes, Concord, Homebush, etc. - what is this area? It's not inner west, but it's not greater west either...
HEy Martin
I think you have down played the significance of the M5 and the ethno cultural movement that is happening in the region that is hemmed by Parramatta rd and M5.
inner south doesn't make as much sense as inner west - marrickville is moving more inner west but things start to change the other side of liverpool rd and cooks river.
St george is pretty true though shrinking as muslims and non ESB move south.
also large ehtnic miniorites create satellites within the boroughs. e.g chinese hotspots in burwood, chatswood, marrickville, eastwood, that are in sone way not characrteristic for the rest of the borough.
I would have thought the major distincitives are
economic.
ethnic.
urban/suburban.
monocultural/ multicultral.
is there some way of putting this on a colour grid that is less geograpphically orientated?
Hi Marty,
Where do the Western Suburbs begin? That's easy. Back in the days when being called a "Westie" was a term of abuse like "Bogan", the Western Suburbs always began a couple of suburbs to the West of yours.
Hahaha!!! Roger you are right. I remember attending a 21st for a friend who lived at Castle Hill and all her Nth Shore friends called her a Westie during the speeches. Westie? Hardly.
Do you need to reflect the differences between Blacktown-Parramatta and Penrith in the WS.
And I'm sure a lot of people would claim the innerwest ended at the cooks river, taking in large portions of the Inner South and St George.
That was really interesting! I do human geography at uni, and they are always dividing up Sydney like that, regardless of how legitimate it is to lump different people into one huge category. Hehe. I like maps and making broad generalisations about people, and I don't even mean that sarcastically. There is something fun about trying to fit everything into boxes. It's like a giant Sydney shaped jigsaw puzzle.
Hello. Just dropped by as I saw your name on Justin's blog. Bizzare as we (family) were talking about you 2 weeks ago. Your parents were visiting my parents on the South Coast (Deftys). I hope I have the right Kemp here...
I like it Marty, having gone to school at eastwood, it is in the gaps between the NS and PArra.
WHy not divide the areas by traditional football loyalties?
Canterbury - seems to work?
Cronulla works. St george - maybe it has to be pre-merger teams..
NS is going to be rugby teams, like gordon, eastwood - could be well eastwood..
PArra and penrith works, blacktown is a difficulty.
Sth Sydney works, but Eastern suburbs, probably needs to be the swans these days...
And the westie thing, mates and I used to joke that the central coast is blacktown by the sea...
Andrew bruce
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